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Horizon Parking PCN - Printable Version +- Private Parking Ticket Legal Advice (PPTLA) (https://pptla.uk) +-- Forum: Legal advice forum (https://pptla.uk/forumdisplay.php?fid=3) +--- Forum: Parking Charge Notices forum (https://pptla.uk/forumdisplay.php?fid=4) +--- Thread: Horizon Parking PCN (/showthread.php?tid=121) |
RE: Horizon Parking PCN - Tortfeasor - 09-03-2026 @b789, thank you again for all of your time and assistance with this. I am going to be compressing the dashcam footage files over the weekend, as I gather POPLA’s portal has size limits. Would it be helpful if I shared - with you - any of it and/or the photos I took at night of signs? I’ve made a note/set reminders etc. of the appeal submission deadline. As it happens I’m on holiday after 23rd September, and I’m planning on submitting it before then. RE: Horizon Parking PCN - b789 - 09-03-2026 If you can upload the photos and video somewhere I can access them, then I can have a look and see how f anything stands out. RE: Horizon Parking PCN - Tortfeasor - 09-06-2026 (09-03-2026, 10:43 PM)b789 Wrote: If you can upload the photos and video somewhere I can access them, then I can have a look and see how f anything stands out. Hi @b789, I hope you can see these links. Here is 'edit 1' of the dashcam footage of the entrance sign - https://youtu.be/VvfdsCZ4Ejc Here's 'edit 2' of the same - https://youtu.be/o-1ETzbjUcg 'Edit 2' is actually a different video but showing the same sign. Here is the entrance sign plus 3 clips of the Your Parking Space signs - https://youtu.be/phJU1Be33UY - this is another video of me driving around the roundabout and then into the car park. I spot the first Your Parking Space sign for the first time at the end of the segment. Have added in 3 videos I took on foot of the Your Parking Space signs afterwards to the same clip. Thank you again. I will post links to photos I took in another post. Here are the photos I took: Close-up of enrtrance sign with no camera flash: https://ibb.co/VW37qKwq Close-up of entrance sign with camera flash: https://ibb.co/9HQ9jtMf Entrance sign from the roundabout with no camera flash: https://ibb.co/mrwyK4BZ Entrance sign from the roundabout with camera flash: https://ibb.co/qYP0K7cw Horizon parking sign within car park close-up no camera flash: https://ibb.co/qYh15k7R - I chose this one because as far as I could see this is the closest sign within the car park to the actual shop entrance. Same Horizon sign from a distance: https://ibb.co/gLJTQhrr Your Parking Space sign within car park no camera flash: https://ibb.co/23VVPHWx RE: Horizon Parking PCN - b789 - 09-07-2026 The nighttime evidence significantly strengthens the signage ground. The YourParkingSpace signs advertise a paid extension or pre-booking scheme. The decisive point is that motorists are presented with conflicting parking regimes without any clear explanation of how they interact. I would replace sections 4 and 6 with the following: Quote:4. THE CONFLICTING YOURPARKINGSPACE SIGNS PREVENT HORIZON FROM ESTABLISHING CLEAR CONTRACTUAL TERMS RE: Horizon Parking PCN - Tortfeasor - 09-07-2026 Thank you once again, @b789. You’ve been a massive help. I was hoping there sensibly wouldn’t be an expectation on me to go and take photographs of most of Horizon’s signs within the car park. After reading your revised suggestions for grounds 4 and 6. I’m feeling reassured this wouldn’t be the case! I’d like to think ground 1 will be dispositive, as you’ve written. I’ve thought about some of your previous suggestions with the photos and dashcam footage. I might be overthinking this now, but do you feel the dashcam footage and photos, which you’ve seen, show enough of the extent of the surroundings of the signs? Obviously, to reasonable people, the darkness and lack of illumination that prevented the photos I took fully showing the tree is part of the problem with where that entrance sign is located, for example. I guess I’m just hoping somebody at POPLA isn’t going to see the photos/videos and think, “I can’t see a tree, what’s he on about?” I am due to be home again from September 19th before my holiday, so if you think it could further help the appeal, I would be able to take more photos if need be. Alternatively, I could also include a marked up version of the entrance sign photo, pointing out where the tree is. I’m probably overthinking this! RE: Horizon Parking PCN - b789 - 09-07-2026 You are probably overthinking the photographs slightly. From what I have seen, the footage and photographs adequately demonstrate the essential points: the entrance sign is unilluminated and effectively invisible from the normal approach; reading it would require a driver to stop unsafely on the roundabout while immediately approaching a pedestrian crossing; and the other Horizon sign is rendered unreadable by its height, small print and the glare from the illuminated store behind it. The fact that the darkness prevents the tree from being clearly reproduced in a photograph rather proves the point about the conditions. A marked-up still identifying the tree, sign, roundabout and pedestrian crossing may assist the assessor, but I would not regard another extensive photographic expedition as necessary. You certainly do not need to photograph every Horizon sign in the car park. Horizon bears the burden of proving that its terms were adequately displayed and capable of forming a contract. However, I would not place a huge amount of faith in POPLA applying the evidence and law properly. Ground 1 should be dispositive because Horizon has produced no evidence that a compliant Notice to Keeper was ever given within 14 days, but POPLA assessors can sometimes accept remarkably weak operator evidence or make assumptions that they should not make. The important reassurance is that a refusal by POPLA would not determine your legal liability or end the matter. A POPLA decision is binding upon Horizon if the appeal is allowed, but it is not binding upon you if the appeal is refused. Horizon would still have to bring a county court claim and prove its case before a judge, who would determine the matter independently. POPLA's opinion would not bind the court. If matters ever progressed that far, I would have considerably greater confidence in the outcome. On the evidence presently available, Horizon would face several fundamental problems: • no evidence that a compliant Notice to Keeper was given within the statutory period and therefore no established keeper liability;
• no entrance signage capable of communicating contractual terms safely and legibly at night; • another material sign rendered unreadable by height and glare; • conspicuous YourParkingSpace signs offering parking for more than three hours, in direct tension with Horizon's alleged one-hour restriction; • no clear explanation of how those conflicting parking regimes interact; and • the statutory requirement that ambiguity in a consumer contract or notice be interpreted in the way most favourable to the consumer. A sensible judge would be likely to ask the basic questions that POPLA sometimes avoids: Where is the original Notice to Keeper? What proves it was posted? What terms could the driver actually see? Which of the conflicting signs governed the parking? What authority did Horizon possess to enforce its particular terms alongside the YourParkingSpace scheme? Horizon would have to answer those questions with evidence, not assumptions. Therefore, give POPLA the best-supported appeal possible, but do not regard an adverse POPLA decision as establishing that Horizon has a viable claim. It does not. RE: Horizon Parking PCN - Tortfeasor - 09-11-2026 @b789 I meant to come back to you the other day to thank you for your wise words and encouragement. I am planning on doing a marked up version of some of the photos taken over the weekend. Planning on getting everything submitted by w/c 20th September as I’m going away at the end of that week. You have saved me a lot of time already! RE: Horizon Parking PCN - Tortfeasor - 09-30-2026 Hi @b789 I have received a response to the POPLA appeal today. I have attached a redacted pdf, and would be eternally grateful if you could give me your thoughts on the comments I can make. They haven’t addressed a lot of the POPLA appeal points I made. Laughably the photos they have sent to POPLA of signage at the car park were clearly taken in the day! Surprise, surprise there is also the matter of the elusive Notice to Keeper, which was never received, but no explanation as to why this is the first time one has been produced by Horizon! As ever, I can’t thank you enough for your help. EDIT: I was about to go out when I posted earlier. Just thought I’d mention some points around some of the things Horizon has chosen to focus on in its POPLA response. My opinion is Horizon has tried to pick holes in my initial July 10th appeal to it, which it didn’t bother to do when it initially replied to my appeal. Seems a bit odd to me as they haven’t addressed many of my POPLA appeal grounds and haven’t referred to my POPLA appeal grounds in turn. They clearly have read some of it though e.g. there is a cursory discussion about the landowner authority ground and the related evidence around that, which my appeal to POPLA asked Horizon to provide. Horizon has been very selective about what it addresses though. There is nothing in Horizon’s POPLA response about the conflicting Your Parking Space signage and different, conflicting Ts and Cs found in the same car park, for example. Additionally, Horizon hasn’t accounted for why it is only now providing a copy of the original notice to keeper letter when it has previously failed to, including when Horizon claimed on August 5th in a response to my SAR that it didn’t hold any records with my name or address! There was an odd timeline in this case anyhow, which you will probably gather from reading Horizon’s response and my previous posts. - I didn’t receive a notice to keeper within 14 days of the parking event on May 22nd; I only received a reminder notice to keeper letter, with an issue date that was 40 days after the parking event. - I initially appealed to Horizon on July 10th citing non-compliance with POFA, emphasising the statutory timescales for delivering a notice to keeper not being adhered to. It was a concise appeal (it’s at pages 3 and 4 of Horizon’s response) and, I think, expressed in clear terms. Based on Horizon’s response about it to POPLA though, I think it’s either employing people deliberately choosing to be obtuse, or who are indeed dim-witted. - Horizon’s first response to my appeal came on July 31st (it’s on pages 5 and 6 of Horizon’s response). Horizon requested more info from me, rejected my appeal and gave me a POPLA code. However, Horizon clearly also stated if I provided additional info to consider my appeal further and Horizon still rejected my appeal, it would issue a new POPLA code. This seemed to be out of kilter with what I had read about how these processes usually worked, but I thought I may as well take Horizon up on what it was saying. It bought me some additional time if anything else. - I was able to get a relative to take photos of the car park signs for me - I was working away at the time - and we both found some obvious issues with the car park entrance sign in particular. My relative told me there was no uplighting on the entrance sign and in her view at gone 10pm, it wouldn’t be visible unless you stood in front of it and shone a torch on it. - I submitted the photos my relative took, with an explanatory note, to Horizon on August 7th. I clearly stated in the note (shown on pages 10-12 of Horizon’s POPLA response) that the photos were taken while it was still daylight. I went on to say the entrance sign’s position - under a tree with no ambient or artificial lighting - would not allow for a driver to read it in hours of darkness. I also highlighted it was unsafe to expect a driver to have to divert their attention away from the road while driving around a live roundabout with a pedestrian crossing ahead, to read a sign with Ts and Cs. Somehow Horizon has gone on in its POPLA appeal response to state my provided photos taken in daytime don’t show the sign wasn’t visible at night. However, Horizon hasn’t demonstrated that their signs were visible at night either! I had acknowledged in the explanatory note to Horizon on August 7th, which went with the photos my relative took, that the photos were taken in daylight. Can Horizon’s “case handlers” or whatever they’re called even read, I wonder? I had stated that nonetheless those daytime and Google Maps’ street view photos showed the entrance sign was under a tree. Furthermore, that there was no artificial lighting on said entrance sign. Therefore, not unreasonable to assume in hours of darkness that the sign would not be visible. Would have thought that would have been an obvious conclusion to reach, to a reasonably minded person! Side point - I had put in the explanatory note on August 7th that I trusted Horizon would issue a new POPLA code if it rejected my appeal, as it had said it would do in its reply to me on July 31st. Somehow Horizon has stated in its POPLA response: “ The Appellant requests a new POPLA verification code and a further 28 days to appeal. A POPLA verification code is generated following the Operator’s appeal decision and is valid for the prescribed appeal period. The Appellant has used the code and submitted this appeal to POPLA. There is therefore no basis or requirement to issue a second code for the same Parking Charge.” What are they even on about? No, I didn’t. I was simply stating on August 7th that I hoped Horizon would follow through as it stated in its July 31st reply to me about issuing a fresh POPLA Code if it still rejected my appeal. It had taken 21 days to respond to my first appeal, after all. Time was running against me. I’d argue they complicated this whole matter entirely because of their request for additional info in that July 31st response. Oh, and the fact is Horizon did issue 2 POPLA Codes in my case anyhow. Their own responses to me, which they’ve included in the appeal response, show that. It’s probably not really germane to the main issues in the case but I’m irked by how Horizon has chosen to make a point about me stating I hope they would keep to their word and supply a new POPLA code if they still rejected the appeal after I provided additional evidence. Horizon’s first reply to my appeal (31st July) can be read as giving me 3 options: pay up, supply additional evidence to us and we’ll look it at, or go straight to POPLA. I don’t think it was wrong of me to remind them they had said if I chose the give us additional evidence option that I would get a new POPLA code if they rejected the appeal again. Ultimately though, Horizon has failed to comment on the photos and dashcam footage I provided in my POPLA appeal, which I captured at night on August 31st when I had returned from working away. These show the entrance sign wasn’t visible, as I had previously suggested it wouldn’t be. It’s under a large tree and there’s no artificial lighting near it! I even embedded these August 31st night time photos and stills from the dashcam footage in the main body of the appeal to POPLA, which I submitted as a PDF containing my POPLA appeal grounds. I also attached the JPG and MP4 files separately. Funnily enough I seem to be the only one who has provided any footage or photos to POPLA that shows what the entrance sign and that other sign near the store entrance within the car park is like at night, when the parking event occurred. Horizon has again provided several photos of signs in its response to POPLA, which are clearly all taken in the day! Theirs are shown at pages 53-56. So, again Horizon hasn’t addressed a significant part of my appeal to POPLA. It’s ironic that Horizon has made a point about my August 5th photos not showing the contemporaneous conditions at the time of the parking event but hasn’t bothered to address the photos and footage I have provided showing conditions at night. Nor that it has failed to provide photos that showed the nighttime conditions as my POPLA appeal asked. I’m finding this all very bizarre… Most importantly Horizon hasn’t provided anything substantive to support that it correctly followed POFA in the first place, and delivered a notice to keeper in time. Horizon has stated on page 20 of its response: “ The Appellant appears to have treated the later reminder as though it were the first and only Notice to Keeper.” This is stating the obvious. Very clear from my first appeal that I was doing that and challenging them that no earlier notice had been delivered! Surely the question of, “well why didn’t Horizon counter this immediately when the appellant was first challenging you about this,” remains? Why is it still unanswered? As can be seen from Horizon’s reply to me on July 31st, it just said it couldn’t be responsible for Royal Mail delivery times, when I had clearly challenged Horizon for not delivering a notice to keeper in time. Also on page 20 within the main body of its POPLA response, Horizon states it has provided case records in Schedule C confirming the issue of an original notice to keeper, which they are claiming was sent on May 28th. I must need a Specsaver’s appointment because I can’t see any “case records” in Schedule C, which is at pages 27-30 of Horizon’s response. How can all of this be credible, I find myself asking? Horizon’s effectively telling POPLA: “yeah, we did send a first notice to keeper in time because we said we did. Here are our records of it,” but then not showing the case records they claim to have? Another side point - I have also noticed Horizon has referred to the parking charge notice being issued on both May 27 and May 28th for the elusive original notice to keeper in its POPLA response! It even does this on the same page - page 20. I had the date down as May 27th because that was the date Horizon had put in the keeper reminder letter that it claimed it had originally issued the charge on. Bearing in mind as of August 5th Horizon stated no such records of letters to me at my address were even held, surely this also undermines the reliability of Horizon’s records? Was someone at Horizon checking its records for charges issued on May 28th and not the 27th? Gawd knows! I’m also perplexed about the references to me stating in the parking operator’s appeal stage that I was a customer or the driver was a customer. I haven’t the foggiest about this. As can be seen from the appeal I submitted on July 10th, no reference is made to this as an appeal ground. The appeal solely focuses on non-compliance with POFA. The second part of the appeal (or my response to additional info that Horizon requested of me) was about defective signage. Apologies if I’m coming across as an irate curmudgeon! I hope this ends at the POPLA stage. I will struggle to not say something impolite and very politically incorrect about the author(s) and other employees of Horizon Parking if it goes further. RE: Horizon Parking PCN - b789 - 10-01-2026 Thank you, @Tortfeasor. I have now reviewed the complete evidence pack. Your assessment is correct. Horizon has produced a great deal of repetitive assertion but has failed to provide the evidence upon which several of those assertions supposedly depend. Most importantly, Section C does not contain the "relevant case records confirming issue" of the original Notice to Keeper. It contains a cover letter, a copy of an alleged NtK, the ANPR images and a registered-keeper information panel. There is no printing record, dispatch log, postal manifest, certificate of posting or other contemporaneous evidence that this particular NtK entered the postal system. Producing a copy now proves only that Horizon can produce a document bearing an issue date. It does not prove that the document was posted. That distinction is particularly important because: • the original NtK was not received;
• Horizon did not produce it when its existence was first challenged; • Horizon's SAR response said it held no relevant letters or records; • the reminder says the original charge was issued on 27 May; • the newly produced NtK is dated 28 May; and • Horizon itself refers to both 27 and 28 May within the same response. Horizon even incorrectly states that the reminder records an issue date of 28 May when it actually records 27 May. These unexplained contradictions materially undermine the reliability of its records. Its signage evidence is equally poor. Horizon criticises your photographs for having been taken after the event, yet its own photographs are daylight images dated 3 September 2024, approximately 20 months before the event. They do not show conditions at 22:45 on 22 May 2026 and provide no evidence that any sign was illuminated or readable at night. Horizon completely ignores your nighttime photographs and dashcam footage. It also fails to address the prominent YourParkingSpace signs offering parking for more than three hours or explain how those conflicting terms interact with Horizon's alleged one-hour limit. Horizon's treatment of the grace period is also inadequate. It merely states that it "considered" the applicable allowances without identifying what grace period was applied or showing its calculation. The alleged excess was only slightly more than the mandatory ten-minute grace period, while the ANPR images record entry to and exit from the site—not the actual period parked. Its claim that you said the driver was shopping at Tesco is simply false. Your initial appeal made no such claim. Horizon appears to have generated a template request for shopping evidence and has now attempted to attribute its own invented premise to you. Finally, Horizon's statement that its authority is "evidenced simply" by the existence of its equipment is circular nonsense. Equipment proves physical presence, not the legal scope of its authority. More importantly, Horizon has not explained how its asserted authority interacts with the separate YourParkingSpace scheme operating on the same land. The POPLA comments should remain tightly focused on those failures rather than becoming distracted by Horizon's irrelevant discussion about receipts and the second POPLA code. I will draft the comments around the missing posting evidence, contradictory records, deficient signage evidence, ignored YourParkingSpace signs and unexplained grace-period calculation. RE: Horizon Parking PCN - b789 - 10-01-2026 You can paste the following as your response to Horizon's evidence: Quote:APPELLANT'S COMMENTS ON HORIZON'S EVIDENCE |